Unbeatable Craps System
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Although I have tested a lot of systems, I don't need to test all of them to know they are all worthless. No system can ever pass the test of time. It is not unusual to win for a while with a system, but if you keep playing the odds will eventually catch up to you and you will fall behind.
For more information about the futility of betting systems, please see The Truth about Betting Systems.
A casino I played at had the 3,4,5 odds system where you were allowed 3x on the 4 and 10, 4x on the 5 and 9 and 5 x on the 6 and 8. I feel that with this 'system' of placing odds, you reduce the fluctuations (with respect to standard 5x odds on all numbers) in your bankroll, and change the distribution of net gain/loss per session, i.e. you would produce a sharper peak located slightly more to the loss side than with 5x odds. Is this so, and could you put some numbers to it?
That is known as 3-4-5X odds, and is now pretty common. The following table shows all the possible outcomes, for the pass and odds combined, with full odds.
With this system you profit EVERY TIME a 6 OR an 8 comes up. Put $6 on BOTH the 6 and 8 place bets. If a 7 comes up (and you lose) before EITHER a 6 or 8 comes up; increase your bet on BOTH 6 and 8 to $18.
Return Table with 3-4-5X Odds
| Event | Pays | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|
| Pass line win | 1 | 0.222222 | 0.222222 |
| Pass line loss | -1 | 0.111111 | -0.111111 |
| Point of 4 or 10 & win | 7 | 0.055556 | 0.388889 |
| Point of 4 or 10 & lose | -4 | 0.111111 | -0.444444 |
| Point of 5 or 9 & win | 7 | 0.088889 | 0.622222 |
| Point of 5 or 9 & lose | -5 | 0.133333 | -0.666667 |
| Point of 6 or 8 & win | 7 | 0.126263 | 0.883838 |
| Point of 6 or 8 & lose | -6 | 0.151515 | -0.909091 |
| Total | 1.000000 | -0.014141 |
The standard deviation per pass line bet is 4.915632.
Unlike most gambling writers, I don't put much emphasis on betting strategies. Assuming the same game and bet, there is no one right or wrong strategy. They all behave differently in the short run, but in the long run you will give the house the same percentage of total money bet.
- What’s really bad are people who take your money in exchange for some kind of unbeatable craps system. These craps systems are NOT unbeatable. In fact, in the long run, they can’t win. You can’t defeat the math at the craps table by combining various bets at the table. There are NO craps bets with a positive expectation.
- In craps the 4,5,6,8,9, and 10 are known as the Place numbers. The player may bet on any of these numbers, and if it is rolled before a seven, the bet wins. Place bets are just like odds bets, except no pass line bet is required, and don't pay as much odds.
- Our $30 systems player has dug an $8,250 hole before getting to the point of making any place bets. From here on, the system makes a comeback, as the player makes place bets that pay either 9-5 on winning bets if the number is 4 or 10, 7-5 on 5 or 9, or 7-6 on 6 or 8.
This is similar to a question I got last week. Yes, it is true that there are ten ways to roll a 6 or 8, and six ways to roll a 7. However, one must not look at the probabilities alone, but weight them against the payoffs. The place bet on the 6 and 8 pays 7 to 6 odds when fair odds would pay 6 to 5. By making six unit place bets on the 6 and 8, and taking the other down if one wins, the probability of winning 7 units is 62.5% and the probability of losing 12 units is 37.5%. If the player must cover both the 6 and 8, then the place bet is the way to go. This rate of return isn't bad but could be better. For the player who puts a priority on minimizing the overall house edge, the best strategy is to make combinations of pass, don't pass, come, and don't come bets, and always take the maximum allowable odds.
The better system is to bet on the don't pass only and take full odds. Yes, betting on both does increase you chances of winning on any one bet. However you are suffering a higher combined house edge by betting on both the pass and don't pass and it will cost you in the long run.
Yes, it was luck. It helped that you stuck to the low house edge bets. However, next time, make the line bets with odds only, and don't bet the field, especially if it pays 2 to 1 only on both the 2 and 12.
No combination of bets can give the player an advantage. In your example you would lose one unit for every 12 on the come out roll. You don't make up for it laying the odds. While you usually win laying the odds, you have to risk more. In the end, laying the odds has zero house edge.
As long as you are backing up your pass and come bets with full odds, it doesn't make any difference how many come bets you make. However, it does reduce the overall house edge to keep the odds on your come bets working on the come out roll.
You should never remove a don't pass bet after a point is made! Once a point is made of 6 or 8 the don't pass has equity of 9.09% of the bet amount, which you would be throwing away by taking the bet down. The equity of a don't pass bet on a point of 5 or 9 is 20%, and on a 4 or 10 is 33.33%.
Thanks for the compliment on my site. The best thing I can say about this system is that it composed of low house edge bets. Yes, a 12 will lose the pass bet and push the don’t pass on the come out roll, this is where the house edge is. By making the pass bet you are increasing the overall house edge. If you’re afraid losing you shouldn’t be playing at all. Never hedge your bets. So my advice is to stick to just the don’t pass and laying odds. Yes, you’ll lose some on the come out roll. However if you don’t lose on the come out roll the don’t pass bet will usually win.
I am a novice, just starting to play. My question concerns the 'Five Count Doey/Don’t' System. The way I understand the system:- Wait until the shooter establishes a point.
- Play both come/don’t come (same amount). Until you have a maximum of four numbers
- After the shooter has rolled five times without rolling a 7, take odds on all your numbers on the front side.
The rationale: Limit your exposure until you find a 'qualified' (five rolls without a 7) shooter. Only betting the odds so there is no 'house edge'! Can you compare this system with just playing pass/come and taking the odds?
As I stated in the other craps strategy question you are only mixing another house edge bet into the game by betting on both the pass and don’t pass, or come and don’t come. It is also not going to help to wait until a shooter hits five points. The probability of making a point is the same for me and you as it is for somebody who just threw 100 points in a row. In other words, the past does not matter. As I stated to the person who asked the other question (whom I think may also be you) don’t make opposite bets, just stick to either the do or don’t side and always back up your bets with the odds.
Unless bankroll preservation is very important to you then Kelly betting won’t help. I would just flat bet. Nice strategy to milk the comp system.
The American Mensa Guide to Casino Gambling has the following 'anything but seven' combination of craps bets that shows a net win on any number except 7. Here's how much MENSA advises to bet in the 'Anything but 7' system:- 5- place $5
- 6- place $6
- 8- place $6
- field- $5
- total= $22
They claim the house edge is 1.136%. How is that possible if every individual bet made has a higher house edge?
Good question. To confirm their math I made the following table, based on a field bet paying 3 to 1 on a 12. The lower right cell does shows an expected loss of 25 cents over $22 bet. So the house edge is indeed .25/22 = 1.136%.
Mensa Anything but Seven Combo
| Number | Probability | Field | Place 5 | Place 6 | Place 8 | Win | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2 | 0.027778 | 10 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 10 | 0.277778 |
| 3 | 0.055556 | 5 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 5 | 0.277778 |
| 4 | 0.083333 | 5 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 5 | 0.416667 |
| 5 | 0.111111 | -5 | 7 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 2 | 0.222222 |
| 6 | 0.138889 | -5 | 0.000000 | 7 | 0.000000 | 2 | 0.277778 |
| 7 | 0.166667 | -5 | -5 | -6 | -6 | -22 | -3.666667 |
| 8 | 0.138889 | -5 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 7 | 2 | 0.277778 |
| 9 | 0.111111 | 5 | 0 | 0.000000 | 0 | 5 | 0.555556 |
| 10 | 0.083333 | 5 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 5 | 0.416667 |
| 11 | 0.055556 | 5 | 0 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 5 | 0.277778 |
| 12 | 0.027778 | 15 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 0.000000 | 15 | 0.416667 |
| Total | 1 | -0.25 |
The reason the overall house edge appears to be less than the house edge of each individual bet is because the house edge on place bets is generally measured as expected player loss per bet resolved.
However, in this case the player is only keeping the place bets up for one roll. This significantly reduces the house edge on the place bets from 4.00% to 1.11% on the 5 and 9, and from 1.52% to 0.46% on the 6 and 8.
For you purists who think I am inconsistent in measuring the house edge on place bets as per bet resolved (or ignoring ties) then I invite you to visit my craps appendix 2 where all craps bets are measured per roll (including ties).
Craig from Los Angeles
No. I had to Google this to find out what this is. This appears to me to be an amusing urban legend about some young scientists who developed a winning craps system. The story is told at Quatloos. I would file this under other fictional stories that have become mistaken for fact, like Joshua’s missing day. As I have said hundreds of times, not only can betting systems not beat games like craps, they can’t even dent the house edge.
If the player bets $5 on the field and 5, and $6 on the 6 and 8, then he will have a net win of $2 on the 5, 6, and 8, $10 on the 2, $15 on the 12, and $5 on the other field numbers, assuming that the 12 pays 3 to 1 on the field. The player will lose $22 on a 7. On a per roll basis, the player can expect to lose 25 cents compared to $22 in bets, for a house edge of 1.136%.
This begs the question, why is this lower than the individual house edge of each bet made? It’s not. The reason it seems that way is the result of comparing apples to oranges. The house edge of place bets is usually expressed as the expected loss per bet resolved. Looking at the individual bets on a per-roll basis, the house edge on the 5 is 1.11%, and on the 6 and 8 is 0.46%, according to my craps appendix 2. Comparing apples to apples, the house edge is a weighted average of the house edge on the field, 5, 6, and 8, on a per-roll basis, or (5/22)×2.778% + (5/22)×1.111% + (6/22)×0.463% + (6/22)×0.463% = 1.136%.
For the benefit of other readers, the 5-Count is a method of slow-playing craps, as discussed in ’Golden Touch Dice Control Revolution’ by Frank Scoblete and Dominator. As the book states, it is a way of betting nothing on some rolls, reducing your expected loss on random shooters, while still getting the full comp value of table time.
The way the 5-Count works is you start counting rolls as soon as a new shooter throws any point number. When you get to five rolls after you start counting, the shooter is deemed worthy, and you start betting. However, you if the 5th roll is not a point number, it doesn’t count.
The book says you will only be betting 43% of the time, which I agree with. It is common for craps players to not bet, bet small, or bet the don’t pass on new shooters, as a way to qualify him. Once a shooter has made a point, or thrown lots of point numbers, the other players will gain confidence in him, and start betting with him. So, this kind of strategy seems natural. When casinos rate your average bet, they don’t lower the average for betting nothing some of the time. However, sometimes they will dock your time, especially if you are betting big.
An alternative strategy is to wait until the shooter makes a point. Under this strategy you will only be betting 40.6% of the time, less than the 43.5% with the 5-Count.
Yes! I’ve said many times that betting systems not only can’t beat a house edge game, they can’t even dent it. That includes denting it in the house’s favor. In other words, even if he tried to lose, he still only gives up 0.18% over the long-run, under your assumptions. Over a shorter time, he probably could do this, but not over 'years.' Some might argue that to deliberately lose, the player should do an anti-Martingale, where the player kept pressing his bets until he lost. However, a problem there is that a winning player will eventually reach the table maximum, which is rather low in craps. It just goes to show how futile betting systems are.
Playing the Iron Cross at Craps
By Jerry 'Stickman'
The lure of playing the Iron Cross bet in the game of craps revolves around the fact that you get paid when any number is thrown any number but the 7 that is. The Iron Cross bet consists of a one unit place (or pass line) bet on the 5, 6 and 8 plus a one unit field bet. An example is a $30 6 and 8, a $25 5 and a $25 Field. The field bet pays when a 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 11, or 12 is thrown. Most field bets pay double when a 2 or 12 is thrown, but sometimes the 2 or 12 pays triple.
I have mentioned in previous articles that the Iron Cross is not all that great a bet. Actually exhorting players to avoid this bet is a better description of previous articles. This is because the house edge on the total bet is simple a sum of each portion of the bet times the house edge on that portion. The house edge on the 6 and 8 is 1.52%. The edge on the 5 is 4.00%. Where the 2 and 12 pay double, the house edge on the field bet is 5.56% and if the 2 or 12 pays triple, the edge is 2.78%. Overall the total edge for the Iron Cross is 3.87% if the 2 and 12 pay double. It is reduced to 2.49% if the 2 or 12 pays triple. Even at its best, the Iron Cross extracts almost a full percent more than the 6 and 8 place bets, so logic dictates that the money should be placed on the 6 and 8.
But gamblers actually human beings are not necessarily logical creatures. I have to admit that I have watched sadly and somewhat enviously as others at the table collect on bet after bet while I patiently wait for a 6 or 8 to hit. So recently I decided to try the Iron Cross when my point was a 5. Though giving up some house edge I am not a masochist, so I only tried this in casinos that pay triple for a 2 or 12, making the house edge 2.49% - not great, but tolerable for a research project.
I was surprised by how excited I was when the first opportunity presented itself. My point was 5, so I placed the 6 and 8 (which is normal for me), and then added the field bet. The numbers rolled that first time were: 10 (collect one unit), 4 (collect one unit), 9 (collect one unit), 6 (collect 1.2 units but lose one unit on the field), 6 (collect 1.2 units and lose one), 8 (collect 1.2 units and lose 1), and it continued.
It felt great collecting on the 10, 4, 9 and other field numbers. It sure hurt, however, collecting a 6 or 8 and losing the field bet, making the net win only one-sixth of normal.
Wanting to give the research a decent test, I continued to bet the Iron Cross every time my point was a 5. Over the period of several days shooting there was ample opportunity to play it. On long rolls I would press the 6 or 8 with the extra units I won by hitting field numbers. By doing this, the effect of losing the field bet when hitting the 6 or 8 is lessened.
Unbeatable Craps System Count
After a week of playing the Iron Cross, here are my observations and feelings.
It is nice receiving all the extra payoffs from hitting the field numbers. It is particularly nice making some money off the 11 and the craps numbers 2, 3, and 12. The double payoff on the 2 and the triple payoff on a 12 are really fun.
Although, as a 'logical' person it shouldnt have, the psychological effect of losing the field bet on a 6 or 8 really impacted me. Being used to collecting the full amount when hitting these numbers, having it diminished by ponying up another field bet affected me more than ever expected. In fact, it more than made up for the exhilaration of collecting on more numbers. Add to this the fact that nearly an extra 1% is donated to the house by betting the Iron Cross, any desire to play this system in the future has been purged.
Unbeatable Craps System
No longer will I be envious of those collecting on field. I will continue to bet as in the past: place the 6 and 8, possibly buy the 4 and 10 if the vig is paid on wins only. If I want to get more numbers in play, adding a come bet or two is the way to go.
Unbeatable Craps System Free
While not collecting as often, I will never lose one bet while winning another and, the house edge will be limited to 1.5% or less on all my bets. That way I have the best chance of winning some of the casinos money.
Unbeatable Craps System
While playing the best bets is sometimes not easy, winning more (or losing less) is much more satisfying. Stick with the math of the game and improve your results.
Jerry 'Stickman' is an expert in craps, blackjack and video poker and advantage slot machine play. He is a regular contributor to top gaming magazines. The 'Stickman' is also a certified instructor for Golden Touch Craps and Golden Touch Blackjack. For more information visit www.goldentouchcraps.com or www.goldentouchblackjack.com or call 1-886-738-3423. You can contact Jerry 'Stickman' at stickmanGTC@aol.com